Episode 224 - Navigating Twin Pregnancy and Birth options: Part Two
Mel:
[0:00] Welcome to the Great Birth Rebellion podcast. I'm your host Dr Melanie Jackson. I'm a clinical and research midwife with my PhD and each episode I cast a critical eye over current maternity care practice by grappling with research and historical knowledge to help you get the best out of your pregnancy, birth and postpartum journey. Welcome, everybody, to today's episode of the Great Birth Rebellion podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Melanie Jackson, and this is part two of our twins episode all about opening up birth options. I've been joined by Natasha, who is the mum in the story of the podcast we told last week. So if you're listening to this episode, I recommend listening to this episode together with the previous episode, which is 223.
Mel:
[0:55] This sort of tells a story of what it looks like to pivot in care, the rollercoaster of change, unexpected plot twists, and how you can curate the birth that you want by being adaptable and flexible in the moment. I would like to personally thank the sponsor of this podcast because that means that you get to listen for free. Poppy Child from Pop That Mama is a doula and hypnobirth practitioner, and she's a sponsor for today's podcast. Poppy has an online course, hypnobirthing course. It's called the Birth Box and it's already helped thousands of women. I get behind the work that Poppy is doing in the Birth Box. It's practical strategies to help you get ready for labor and birth, but also the challenges of parenting. And with my code, if you type Melanie in at the cart, you'll get 25% off. So if you're preparing for birth, go check it out. You will be so glad you did. The link is in the show notes. Type Melanie at the cart and get 25% off. Thank you Poppy for sponsoring this podcast so that everybody else gets to listen completely free. Let's get started on today's episode. Natasha's going to share with us her journey of her twin birth and how she navigated the system to get the birth.
Mel:
[2:18] Mimicked close as possible, I'm imagining, to what you are hoping for. Welcome to the podcast, Natasha.
Natasha:
[2:26] Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honour.
Mel:
[2:29] Oh, and I will just say you're only a few weeks postpartum.
Natasha:
[2:33] Yeah, they're almost six weeks old.
Mel:
[2:36] Oh my gosh, and you've got five children now total, is that correct?
Natasha:
[2:39] Yes, yes, five.
Mel:
[2:41] Incredible. Well, how about you introduce yourself to our listeners and then we can get into your story?
Natasha:
[2:48] Oh, this was my fourth pregnancy this time round, and we were planning our third home birth. But at our 20-week anatomy scan, we had a little bit of a surprise and found out that we were expecting twins. So unfortunately, that did mean that we couldn't go ahead with our home birth, which admittedly took quite a bit of time for me to get over. That was heartbreaking in a sense. I've had two previous home births and loved them. Could just one of the best experiences I've ever had in my whole life and so, realizing then that our care was going to be drastically different that took quite a bit of time to kind of, come around too and it was a bit of an overwhelming situation to be honest because, we had no idea what to expect with twins we had no idea what, it all meant but thankfully I had an amazing midwife and then who she got me in.
Natasha:
[3:52] Who was it dr stew he she got me watching some of his podcasts and videos and reading all of his information so, being able to kind of look from somebody that had been so experienced because to be honest i don't think there was anyone really around here that's doing anything remotely close to what dr stew's doing so to be able to kind of like lean on him, and get his in like inside information on it was really helpful but then we very quickly realized that, our care here in Australia is very very different to what it is for twins in the state so that was kind of the beginning of a very, very big learning curve a very rollercoaster of an experience lots of ups lots of downs and that one that I'm ultimately really grateful for because it turned out really, really well and I can't be more grateful for my midwife Hannah and also my daughter Lou as well as Crystal one of our other midwives that helped out along the way as well.
Mel:
[4:59] I'm really curious to know at that 20-week morphology scan when you Was the deal breaker for the home birth, the fact that you didn't want to have twins at home?
Natasha:
[5:13] No, not at all.
Mel:
[5:15] So I know Hannah doesn't attend twins at home for very understandable reasons. And, you know, there's restrictions on midwives and there's skill levels that sort of really should be achieved before you attempt to, you know, care for women having twins at home. Had you had access to a midwife who was very confident to attend Twins at Home, would you have persisted with your home birth plans?
Natasha:
[5:40] 100%. 100%.
Mel:
[5:42] So this was absolutely your mindset. You were like, having a home birth, the deal breaker was just the fact that Australian midwives really aren't facilitated to develop twin birth skills.
Natasha:
[5:58] Yes, that's correct.
Mel:
[5:59] So this was the first pivot, but it sounds like your philosophy was still very much rooted in aiming for a low intervention birth.
Natasha:
[6:08] Yeah, very much so.
Mel:
[6:10] So what was the, was it the pivot to know that you would be having hospital-based care? Was that the biggest mental barrier or sort of mental danger? Gymnastics or was there something more that really worried you
Natasha:
[6:27] Well personally where we are where we live we're about an hour away from two of the closest hospitals so uh, knowing that I'd have to travel that that's a major aspect as well because we were originally planning that it'd be a natural birth so knowing that I'd have to travel an hour in the car whilst in labor that was a big mental block for me, I've done I did it with my first and it was awful, it was awful but knowing that I think having that those two prior home births and knowing how easy it is I could very easily speak up for what I wanted and what I didn't want and, knowing then of going back into the hospital system that, everything was going to have to be a fight and there'd probably have to be some compromise unfortunately, um we're very big on what we do believe in and, just the even the thought of having to compromise on a very low intervention birth provided that everything was safe everything was going well, just the thought that we'd have to compromise on that was pretty devastating and that yeah that was the first major hurdle but.
Mel:
[7:43] And you did some pretty massive pivots Most women discover that they're pregnant with twins much earlier in the pregnancy. They have a lot more time to consider their options. So you kind of had, you know, 18 weeks or so to make a plan. So I'm just keen to hear the story from the 20-week scan. What unfolded from there?
Natasha:
[8:10] So even though it was a 20-week scan, it wasn't actually until 21 weeks and four days that we had our anatomy scan just because there was very limited availabilities and that was the earliest I could get in. So I actually had a suspicion that I was carrying twins. twins so it wasn't too much of a surprise but it was still seeing it on the screen it was still like okay wow this is real this is happening.
Mel:
[8:37] I'm just wondering why you suspected twins when you said there's more than one baby
Natasha:
[8:42] Oh my goodness the fatigue that hit me so I I we were trying for this pregnancy so I took the pregnancy test early rather before my miss period and it came up clear as day. So that was my first suspicion that it was very obvious. I started showing considerably earlier, but at the same time too, it was my fourth pregnancy. So I wasn't, that wasn't the whole selling point, but the fatigue and the nausea was quite severe this time round. It started much earlier and it did last quite a bit longer. So there was just a lot of little bits and bobs that kind of came together that was like, okay, something's just different this time around and yeah.
Mel:
[9:29] Okay yeah I'm just curious yeah
Natasha:
[9:31] You can continue yeah so I remember walking out of the, ultrasound appointment was actually the day after my husband's birthday and I walked out of the ultrasound appointment he wasn't able to come with me so he didn't know until later that night but I called Hannah straight away after the appointment I was, I had no idea what to do. I was like, oh, it's true. I don't know what to do. So we had a bit of a chat and then she started gathering all this information for me. We were looking at hospital policies to figure out their standard processes and procedures of what they do. And that's when it started becoming quite overwhelming seeing the hospital's procedures written down in writing. I don't have a medical background. I've owned only the stuff that I've researched for myself. But seeing everything written down was terrifying, absolutely terrifying. I had to put it down and I couldn't look at it anymore. I was just like, nah, this is nothing like what I want at all. So that was when we started looking into Dr. Stu and figuring out, okay, what is the most natural route that we can go while still being in the system? them. And like, what are the things that we can try and push for that are going to be the easiest to get?
Natasha:
[10:57] Unfortunately, though, so the first ultrasound that I had, they were not capable of doing twin scans, I believe. That's, I'm not 100% sure the reasoning behind that, but they weren't comfortable doing twins. So I had to go see the specialist in our area, and that was kind of the beginning of the first bit of the roller coaster, I guess you could say.
Natasha:
[11:22] So from that ultrasound with the specialist, it was showing that both twins were measuring quite small. I can't remember exactly what percentile they were measuring, but they were showing that they were in the small for gestation age. So not growth restricted at that point, but they were measuring quite small. So from that, then we had our first obstetrician appointment with a high-risk clinic in the regional hospital. And they essentially handballed me. They thought it was too high-risk, too... They didn't feel comfortable taking me on. They just wanted to refer me to a tertiary hospital in Melbourne. them.
Mel:
[12:08] So they didn't want to care for you through the pregnancy or were they just sort of like, we can't care for birth?
Natasha:
[12:14] We're not, to be honest, we don't know. We kind of got out of there quick, smart. Hannah came with me to that appointment and the appointment wasn't too bad. Like it wasn't anything we weren't expecting. And then the day after the appointment, actually, they called me back and they pretty much just said, you need to go to a tertiary hospital. You need to get a second opinion. and so it was very overwhelming like we would literally just found out that we're having twins and everything was all it was very chaotic trying to play catch up I guess you could say.
Mel:
[12:47] For those listening how far would you have had to travel to access one of those tertiary hospitals from where you are
Natasha:
[12:53] About three and a half hours to that particular hospital right so they were kind of.
Mel:
[12:58] Expecting look you're having twins we can't help you you need to go three and a half hours for care yeah yeah right yes we're building here of what the services for twin care could be like
Natasha:
[13:14] Yeah so that was a little bit overwhelming to begin with because originally we were wanting to continue hannah to be my main provider, and then just see the obstetricians when needed and try and figure out some form of arrangement like that, unfortunately that they weren't happy with that and so we decided that it was best to go elsewhere I didn't feel comfortable Hannah didn't particularly feel comfortable either it was just we weren't settled with that and so we're like well if we're not we're feeling like this we're not feeling supported this isn't going to work. So then we first pivot. Then we went to another, well, the other regional hospital. So we're kind of like in a triangle. So where we are, it's an hour one way to that hospital and then an hour the other way to the other hospital. So no difference really in travel time. And then, so we went to that hospital and then we met with the head obstetrician there and he was willing to take us on, but he was very, to the book and to their procedure. So it was because the babies were measuring smaller, supposedly, they were wanting to do weekly appointments, weekly bedside dopplers, fortnightly growth scans, and it was a lot.
Mel:
[14:39] It was a lot. And did you get the impression from this obstetrician that you would have any other option other than cesarean section after all of this heavy monitoring?
Natasha:
[14:50] No, so almost right from the start, I made it clear that a vaginal birth was my preference and that I only wanted a cesarean if it was medically an emergency. So at the time with them measuring smaller, he kind of just brushed it off. He didn't really want to talk about it. His whole point was just to get to 36 weeks and then we'll talk about it. And that kind of goes against everything that I as a person. I'm a planner, so I like to have everything kind of like set in place. I understand birth is so unpredictable, but... The fact that he wasn't willing to even listen to our wishes was pretty disappointing, really. He was a lovely man. He was so lovely as a person, but just wasn't really open to listening to what we wanted, unfortunately.
Mel:
[15:46] Yeah. And I suppose, too, when you've had those experiences of previous vaginal births that you were really happy with, And that was your benchmark is to keep it as close to that experience as possible. It's very hard to engage with a care provider all through your pregnancy if you don't know if they're even going to offer you an option that's close to what you're hoping for. So it is unfair to think that you would be happy to wait for birth planning till 36 weeks. So we're kind of getting this idea that things at the second hospital, although they're capable of kind of offering a degree of antenatal care, still hadn't quite revealed what the menu items would be for you when it came to birth.
Natasha:
[16:35] Yeah.
Mel:
[16:36] Okay. So then they're doing these routine, quite repetitive and frequent ultrasounds. What happened then from?
Mel:
[16:47] Through the rest of the pregnancy
Natasha:
[16:49] So we were having to begin with I was having fortnightly growth scans because I didn't have my first scan they didn't have a benchmark for how big the babies were so we were trying to figure out, are they following their own growth pattern or, is there something wrong and they're declining with their growth so at the start I was having about fortnightly growth scans and then I pushed them back to about three weeks apart just because it was getting too much. The babies were going okay. They were following their own growth chart for probably the first three, two or three growth scans. And then all of a sudden they jumped up a little bit. They were like, oh, okay. It was just the scans, like they were bad scans. And everything was fine. And then we had a really bad growth scan result where they supposedly dropped off considerably. So from there, Hannah suggested that we speak to a maternal and fetal medicine doctor, someone who's a little bit more advanced, a little bit more knowledgeable, to get a second opinion.
Natasha:
[17:58] And after speaking to him, our kind of uneasiness of everything had settled. He was very reassuring. As it turns out, the original ultrasound people, they were using a singleton chart, which apparently in itself is a very controversial thing, whether or not they should be using twin charts or singleton charts. So our babies were measuring small compared to a single pregnancy. Whereas if you were using a twin chart they were actually measuring I think in the 30th to 40th percentile for most of it, but as it turns out even the maternal and fetal medicine doctor he was using a different singleton chart to what the ultrasound clinic was using where we were going, so his singleton growth chart was actually showing that the babies weren't small for gestation they were above the 10th percentile so the discrepancies in that kind of we were, we didn't really know where our heads were at because we're like everybody's using different charts, what's right what's wrong we don't know.
Mel:
[19:07] Did your intuition ping like was there anything in you that
Natasha:
[19:10] Was thinking.
Mel:
[19:11] There's definitely something wrong here or did you have some uh I guess intuitive understanding of how your babies were going.
Natasha:
[19:20] I deep down didn't think that there was an issue but when people are saying things to you and I will say that the bedside manner of the ultrasound tech was not great. It wasn't very sympathetic empathetic caring it was very clinical very very clinical and when you're presented with, we think that your babies are measuring small it's it was a little bit overwhelming so, I think once I got over the initial shock of being told that your babies are measuring small, I was able to kind of like take a step back. I'm like, no, no, everything else is fine. There was no indication that there was anything wrong with our babies. There was no abnormalities. There was no signs. Like all the amniotic fluids were fine. All the dopplers were fine. Everything was really good. So there was no indication that there was something wrong to be causing, this issue and on top of that too I was not a big baby and my husband wasn't a big baby either and my previous children were all on the smaller side, so when we took into consideration that as well like the genetic aspect of it as well.
Natasha:
[20:40] It was just that initial shock of being told or your babies are measuring small. But we also knew as well that ultrasounds are not the most accurate.
Mel:
[20:52] I'm curious to know when you had these, there was so many moments, like forks in the road of like, oh, my gosh, now we have to think about this and now we have to think about that. And there's so many twists and turns that a woman with a singleton baby would
Mel:
[21:06] not have had to think about. What parts of your care and what parts of sort of what was around you that made this less difficult
Natasha:
[21:17] Definitely having a private midwife and a doula who, you could lean on that have been through not this exact same situation, but that they've seen the not so good side of pregnancy, labor and birth. So they were really reassuring. I don't know how many times my husband and I spoke about it that we were questioned why we were continuing to have a private midwife and a doula if we were going into the hospital system. I don't know how many times we were asked that. And we're like, there is so much that we do not understand about twins, about all these other new aspects of birth. I mean, if it was a single baby, maybe, maybe it'd be a different story. But there was so much. it was almost like being a brand new parent all over again we had so much to learn it was so different, so having Hannah there and Lou as well and even Crystal who was one of Hannah's midwives as well just having them there, I don't know how many times I'd be getting sent like research papers or, just extra information but they'd go above and beyond to help reassure that everything's fine this is just what it is with twins it's different to a singleton pregnancy unfortunately and maybe.
Natasha:
[22:38] Our our care providers here aren't as experienced that it's kind of treated as a bit more, We don't know, so we're just going to kind of throw the kitchen sink at it per se.
Natasha:
[22:53] But, yeah, no, having that support, I mean, my husband is incredible as well. I'm the crazy one per se, but.
Natasha:
[23:03] He was so reassuring. He was just there when I really needed it the most because, it's just having that constant care and the continuity too. So if it was in the hospital, I'd be seeing a different midwife or a different, whoever each week, each appointment, whatever it may be, but having the same people there that were constantly aware of what was going on, and then they get to know you, they become like a second family. They know the ins and outs of everything. So having that there was invaluable. I can't put enough emphasis on how crucial that was for the whole pregnancy and birth as well.
Mel:
[23:45] Amazing. And they really commented on how they just thought you were the most impressive woman on the planet. They couldn't stop praising you, which I agree. And one of the things that they really highlighted, they were like, Natasha was just so educated. And I was curious to ask you, you know, you mentioned that you really tapped into Dr. Stu's resources and he's an American obstetrician. I'll make sure to put his links in the show notes so everybody else can see who you were talking about as well. But you mentioned you tapped into Stu and obviously you had Hannah on tap for other education, but I feel like they gave the impression that you had this extra knowledge that they may not have been involved in. I'm wondering if you had extra information that you were resourcing yourself with as you made these decisions or were you leaning into your instinct or you know how did you become educated and I'm asking as much you know to understand your story but also if there's any mums listening who are having a more challenging scenario in their pregnancy
Natasha:
[24:56] I'm definitely watching a lot of your YouTube, I had to be honest I've been watching you for quite some time so it's actually a really surreal moment being speaking to you it's just sort of a head spin look to be honest.
Natasha:
[25:16] I am the type of person that I have to understand the ins and outs of something to like actually understand it it's I'm, not I'm not one for necessarily taking what someone says and believing it I've always been the type that I mean my husband will vouch of how many hours I love read I love reading I, yeah I think just the desire to understand so whether it was watching YouTube of people that I trusted so between you you Dr. Stu Hannah would be sending me podcasts and research papers and even Crystal would be sending, like studies and different results and whatnot of certain outcomes that were relevant and then, yeah just the desire to understand i think, that gave the power like that gave me the power to kind of like push away the fear because it's like i can understand now i understand what the risks are i understand what, the benefits are because if i had i feel like if i hadn't have done that and if i hadn't had hannah blue crystal there to help educate me as well at the same time, the fear would have taken over and I would have just been like, do whatever you want, cut me open, which isn't me, but... It is scary and I feel like that might be a little bit intentional but.
Mel:
[26:41] The other thing that they mentioned was that you came across so confidently in your interactions with care providers and in your decision making. They were like, sometimes we just had nothing to do because Natasha just owned the room as you should. Do you feel like it was the knowledge that you'd gained that made you confident to do that or is that kind of part of your persona? that you just like know how to advocate for yourself
Natasha:
[27:07] No that is actually the polar opposite I am such a people pleaser I have a really hard time saying no to people, so I think it was a learning experience for myself because I hadn't I didn't need to do that with my previous two births my first was a little bit different being in a hospital, but for my second and third born having home first I didn't have to fight it was just this is what we want this is what's gonna happen that was it and our midwife, she was amazing she supported us in everything but it was a big learning curve but, I think knowing how interventions can affect not only myself but my unborn children, I think that protective side kind of overcame the people-pleaser side that I have to protect my children. I'm not willing to put them in danger just because I have a hard time saying no. So then with the knowledge that I was able to gain, it was easier to be able to say, no, I don't want that. This is what I want. We did compromise. there were things along the way that we did compromise on but it was from a place of knowledge not of a place of fear.
Mel:
[28:33] Incredible I'm so curious to know about that and I'm even more kind of glad that it wasn't kind of your general persona like for me I just always go at things at 100% and I'm so someone asked me like how did you do that I'm like I don't know that's just how I am that's how I do everything but it's great to know that even if you have this usual people-pleasing behavior which many women would relate to that even in these really tricky scenarios and these big decisions you felt confident to sort of go no I know exactly what I'm aiming for and I've done enough research and I've got enough people around me that I feel confident in the decisions and I think another part of it was that you were so clear on what you were aiming for something that happens for some women is that they just kind of go I don't really know what I so I'm kind of cool for whatever happens so there was that added added layer for you I think that you're like well I do have an aim in mind and let's try and get as close to that as possible but yeah that mama bear their instinct just kind of kicked it. And I mean, I guess too, Having a cesarean section, knowing that you're going to be caring for two babies and then three more at home is also quite a big consideration, I imagine.
Natasha:
[29:59] And in all honesty, we're not 100% sure if we want to have children, any more children or not. So even the thought of if we were to have more children, just the complications that that puts on later on. Not to say that I couldn't have a VBAC, but it's just, I guess, a whole other layer that wasn't necessary if it didn't need to be.
Mel:
[30:21] I feel like maybe you're hovering around the 32-ish week mark now with all of these three or four extra scans. And do you want to keep us going with the story?
Natasha:
[30:36] Yes so up until that point or thereabouts I had a very uncomplicated pregnancy other than just general fatigue general nausea, it was pretty straightforward and then around that time I went into hospital with kidney pain which was a bit of a banner in the works so it was um.
Natasha:
[30:59] Discovered that my twin a my little boy he was we suspect he was pushing up on my kidney and kind of blocking the function a little bit so that, indicate we had a bit of an infection from that that was causing quite significant pain and whilst I was in hospital we, started having some very minor contractions so that was very early on thankfully the hospital was able to get that under control, and able to stop that and unfortunately I did take a dose of antibiotics but this was one of the things that we compromised on that the one dose, was going to be necessary to keep them in and allow them to grow more so that when they did come, I think I was about 33 weeks at this point, so 33, 34, so it was still quite early, but, we decided that it was going to be the safest option overall rather than trying to fight off an infection and put the babies at risk, that, that was something that we were willing to compromise on for their safety.
Natasha:
[32:11] And then from that, I essentially went on bed rest from there on out to allow my body to recover. It was a lot of more resting. I think it made me realize that I wasn't resting enough prior to that, that I was probably pushing myself a little bit too much. But it was a good reminder just to kind of take it back a little bit and take it a bit easier, especially like coming into the end of pregnancy that, all right, Things are going to get a bit hectic once the baby's come, so enjoy it while we can.
Natasha:
[32:45] Yeah. And then from there, everything kind of settled down a little bit. And then from there, I think it was a couple of weeks later, it was right before I was 36 weeks, I started having preterm labour again. So we went to hospital, back we went, and we, from the growth scans, because they were showing that the babies were small.
Natasha:
[33:14] They were supposedly measuring a little bit smaller than what the hospital, our regional hospital, was comfortable caring for. So the decision was made that I was going to be airlifted to Melbourne, to one of the tertiary hospitals in Melbourne, so that if the babies did need to be delivered, that they were going to be able to be cared for, which was very unfortunate timing because both Hannah, and Crystal, my midwives, were actually at your conference.
Mel:
[33:46] Yes, in Melbourne, would you believe it?
Natasha:
[33:49] Yes. So it wasn't the worst thing because I was coming closer to them, but of all weekends throughout the whole pregnancy, it was the weekend that everyone was unavailable. Even Lou was coming as well. So everyone was, yes.
Mel:
[34:07] This often happens. A lot of the women are like, hang on a second. You can't take all the midwives.
Natasha:
[34:13] I was like, at least it was in Melbourne. It wasn't like on the other side of Australia. It was, I was actually coming closer to them. Lou actually came down. Hannah and Crystal were already at something, another event. Hannah, sorry, Lou was with me the whole time. And then she came down and drove down and she came to the hospital to be with me. but they were able to get those contractions under control again. They felt confident that continuing the pregnancy was going to be the best option rather than delivering the babies. And I probably should say at this point that both babies were still breached. It was no chance of a natural birth there. So it would have had to have been a caesarean.
Mel:
[35:05] So back at home, your two regional hospitals were like, this is a total game changer, two breech babies with a twin pregnancy. There's no way we're even going to consider offering you a vaginal birth.
Natasha:
[35:19] Yes.
Mel:
[35:22] Yes. So Hannah tells me that she kind of just casually called you at one point close to the 38 week mark and went, hey, what would you think? And I shall ask you about your experience with this, but Hannah kind of indicated that there was this kind of two week vague window of like, oh, what are we going to do? Because we're looking down the barrel of staying here, we have the option of cesarean birth. But you know, because you've already been engaging with Stu's content and Hannah has been giving you information and whatever you've gleaned from the podcast and other YouTubes, you knew there were other options for you, but they weren't other options for you where you were.
Natasha:
[36:08] Yeah.
Mel:
[36:09] And Hannah describes kind of giving you just a sneaky, casual phone call going, what do you think if we just went on down to Melbourne?
Natasha:
[36:20] What was your.
Mel:
[36:21] Experience of those two weeks of just vague planning?
Natasha:
[36:26] Well, it's funny you say that because this had actually been going on right from when we found out that we were expecting twins because we went into a bit of a deep dive figuring out what our care was going to be. So Hannah had gotten in contact with some of her network friends and people she'd worked with and came up with a few options. So, there was the option of going to Sydney and having essentially a home birth at a hospital with a midwife that had the backing of a private obstetrician. So, that would have been incredible. But given that we already have three children, where we are to pack up and move our family, not knowing when we'd go into labour, that was just.
Natasha:
[37:15] Unfortunately, it was just something that we couldn't make work. Where we have a small farm and it's just it's not something that we could just pack up and go unfortunately, and then there was the option of delivering in Melbourne and maybe not so home birth life, but that would mean either once again going down and staying in Melbourne prior we could have waited until I went into labour but, I have historically had very quick labours and I wasn't confident that I would make it once labour had started. Like my last with my third from very first contraction to when he was born was only about three hours so things progressed very quickly and I really don't think I would have made it. So that was kind of out of the question, but.
Natasha:
[38:15] Before Hannah had mentioned, should we look at Melbourne, in that kind of two-week bracket, nothing felt right. We were umming and ahhing whether a planned caesarean was going to be the better outcome or whether doing maybe the not-so-by-the-book thing and just rocking up to hospital in labour and then them having to deal with it, Neither of those options felt right and I couldn't come to a decision that which one, it just, it didn't feel, neither of those options felt right and we just, honestly didn't know what to do. We, one day we'd feel, just book in for the cesarean and then at least, I mean, if they don't have the experience, we don't want to put our babies at risk. But then at the same time too, we're like, well, we understand that cesareans also aren't risk-free, that there are some serious side effects and complications that can happen with caesareans, as well as the fact of recovery and future issues if we do decide to have more children. It was a really hard spot to be in mentally because I was heavily pregnant with twins.
Natasha:
[39:30] It was a lot and just nothing felt right. And then the Monday before, I delivered on the Thursday, So the Monday, Hannah called just to check in and she was like, should we try Melbourne? And I was like, well, you know what? Not going to hurt to try because prior we had actually spoken to the maternal and fetal medicine doctor. And because the scans had shown that the babies were small, originally they were okay with having us deliver breech babies. But given that their size they weren't comfortable that the babies were too small and it was.
Natasha:
[40:12] Between the risks of, I'm not sure of the terminology, but with them being so small and with them coming out, the head entrapment as well as just being so small, just the toll that labour would take on them that maybe they weren't going to be big enough and strong enough to cope well with labour. So we kind of put that to bed a few weeks prior. But this all kind of came about after going to the tertiary hospital the second time that they did a scan there. And the scan was vastly different from what we had been getting from our regional clinic here. There was almost half a kilo difference in each baby, which ultimately changed everything.
Natasha:
[41:02] All of our care was based off, like prior with this hospital, all of our care was based off the fact that our babies were small and they weren't small and that literally changed everything. It was a sigh of relief because I think we'd been kind of hoping or we kind of had, we thought that the scan was going to be not right but when we got the results from the tertiary hospital of how big our babies actually were, and we're like our whole pregnancy care would have been different so it was on one hand a relief that our babies were healthy and they were big and they were doing well but then on the other hand it was like, how many appointments did I go to for nothing how many times did I have to like fight them over absolutely nothing admittedly the breach they were breached so our regional hospital wouldn't have delivered regardless of that that's just yeah, they weren't open to that yes but that that would have changed our whole care we would have gone from weekly appointments to, two three every four week appointments the dopplers i wouldn't have had to have bedside dopplers done every week to check their umbilical cord blood flow to check the amniotic fluid to check their heart rate so, incredible how much the care we received was based on an inaccurate scan or multiple inaccurate scans.
Mel:
[42:31] You know there is like a specialist ultrasound place that can offer really more detailed ultrasounds although what it sounds like is that where you live there's not endless resources and you know specialists just on hand like they would be in a metropolitan area so it's it was a real barrier for you I think to get the type of care that probably would have been ideal that could have avoided this in your location
Natasha:
[43:01] I mean admittedly like even though we did have to go even though I did get airlifted to Melbourne, and that it was a bit of an ordeal we are so grateful that it did actually happen because without that, getting that tertiary scan we wouldn't have been able to deliver in Melbourne we wouldn't have been able to have a natural birth we would have still been booked in for a cesarean even though, it was eventful and it was a bit full-on the last few weeks of pregnancy, we were really grateful for it so after we got those results and we were kind of in limbo for a while, we kind of was like well the babies aren't small maybe Melbourne will be happy to deliver breech after all, given that the only reason they said no originally, was that that was small.
Natasha:
[43:48] And with the tertiary scans, they showed that the babies weren't small. So from Monday afternoon, when Hannah got into contact with the hospital, I received a phone call to say, you're going, one of the obstetricians will call you tomorrow over the phone. And we'll just run through and make sure it's suitable. And then so Tuesday morning I was supposed to have an obstetrician appointment in Wangaratta. We cancelled that. And then I was actually at a coffee shop with my husband when they called and.
Natasha:
[44:26] The obstetrician in Melbourne was amazing. She was like, you've done this before. before she was listing off all the kind of standard things that they do for twin births.
Natasha:
[44:39] I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but epidural is a pretty standard practice for twins, even if it is a natural birth, given that with the second twin, if they have to go in and manually maneuver twin B out, or around or whatever the case may be, the epidural is a very standard practice. And that wasn't something that I wanted because I didn't want to interfere once again. So she was she even said before I'd even asked that she knew that I'd had home births she knew that I could handle the pain she said it was entirely up to me if I wanted to have the epidural or not she of course ran through the pros and cons of it, and then even like the other things like all the monitoring and all their other standard practices she was really open to what I wanted, she had her preferences of course but it was just an honest and open conversation of this is why she wanted this and this is the reasoning behind it.
Mel:
[45:41] I was just curious to know if you felt like you needed to fight her to get what you wanted like the other some of the other appointments felt a little bit like you were trying to you know really advocate was it like that with her
Natasha:
[45:57] No, so we didn't go through everything over the phone. It was mostly just figuring out whether or not we're going to book in for it because I would have, I was going, I'd be going down to Melbourne to be induced. So after we spoke to her, I actually burst into tears at the coffee shop because it felt like such a relief that I could just attempt to have a natural delivery and that she would support it. I was okay having to compromise on the other stuff at that point in time, just after everything we'd been through. Just the natural birth itself was so important to me. So I was willing to compromise on those other things. But after speaking to her and just this relief that kind of overcame me, I burst into tears at the coffee shop in front of everyone it was it was just it felt like, The last few months, we'd just been constantly fighting and then finally someone came along that was just willing to even just listen to what we wanted. It wasn't, no, this is how we do it and this is the only way we're going to do it. It was, all right, we'll work together. We'll work out something that we're both happy with. And that alone was like we're in a completely different world because we hadn't experienced that at all. There was no compromise. There was nothing up until that point.
Mel:
[47:19] Wow. Okay. so we've had the phone call of like okay we we're gonna do this we're going to melbourne we're planning this induction this was how you managed to get to the point where you even made it possible for yourself to have a breech twin vaginal birth and for those listening it's a pretty big deal here in australia full stop to get a breech vaginal birth because a lot of the clinicians are just underskilled and not comfortable and a lot of the facilities have just stopped doing vaginal breech births it's a whole other separate amazing thing to have a vaginal twin birth because again a lot of services are a little bit terrified of a woman with two babies so it's quite the undertaking to have this supportive team in a facility who's like yeah 100% let's go for it a double breech twin birth and it sounds like that that cry that you had was just the weight of all of the pregnancy concerns just falling away and yeah realizing that there was this more aligned option now available to you so talk to us about The journey to Melbourne and how the birth unfolded.
Natasha:
[48:41] It was a long trip to Melbourne. That three hours was brutal. It was heavily pregnant with twins. We, after speaking to the obstetrician on the Tuesday, we went down Wednesday and it was like it was just meant to be. I didn't sleep well on the Tuesday night. I'm not sure if it was nerves. I'm not sure if it was excitement. I was still a little bit apprehensive of being in a hospital, but just knowing that there was someone that was actually willing to listen did put my mind to ease but I actually woke up Wednesday morning we were planning to leave, early afternoon and I woke up early Wednesday morning and I'd actually lost my mucus blood.
Natasha:
[49:25] So it was like okay this is happening whether I'm going into spontaneous labor or whether I'm being induced but it's happening so I had called Hannah and.
Natasha:
[49:36] She was laughing because she was like, of course, this is going to happen. You're just going to go into spawn. Now that it's booked in, you're relaxed. It's just going to happen. We ended up going down the day before. So we went Wednesday and then we stayed. We booked an Airbnb in the city. My husband and I went out for dinner, our final dinner before together, which was really nice. And we stayed with Hannah and Lou as well. So having them there as well, we were able to kind of like regroup and kind of figure out our plan of attack for the next day. We still actually hadn't spoken to the obstetrician about our birth plan at that point. It was just we're going to attempt the natural delivery, but we didn't know any of the details yet. So we were still a little bit like on edge, but it was a little bit bizarre, but it was good. I'm glad that Hannah and Lou were actually with us, staying in the same place.
Natasha:
[50:27] So it was just nice. It was reassuring to know. So then, yeah, the next morning we woke up and made our way to the hospital and pretty much walked in and straight away we all noted how different of a feel this hospital had. It was just, I don't really know how to put it into words. It was just, even though I knew what I was getting myself into going into a hospital, it just didn't have that same feel. I don't know how to put it, but it just, it felt more relaxed. because it wasn't so intimidating. Hannah and Lou, even my husband, said the same thing. That was a good start.
Mel:
[51:06] It might be the difference between... I feel like tertiary hospitals have seen a lot and so they're a lot spooked by things. So if you're like, okay, yep, sure. You know, I feel like they're a little bit more relaxed because their scope of what they've seen and done has been so vast. Your hospital, especially the rural hospitals or regional hospitals, they have often got a different capacity and they can feel a little bit more heightened in terms of the collective nervous system of all of the care providers there. But, yeah, I feel like a lot of the city hospitals and the bigger tertiary hospitals, they're less nervous because of what they've seen and what they're prepared for.
Natasha:
[51:53] And that was another aspect too that I felt more comfortable that if something did go sideways during labour and maybe the babies weren't doing so well. Knowing that they had better equipment, better, more experienced people, nothing against the regional hospitals in that respect, but they have just, the tertiary hospitals, like you said, they've seen a lot more. And knowing that if something happened and I had to go to theatre, that that time from going from the birthing suite to theatre was going to be drastically quicker even. Just that alone was reassuring as well. I had looked into a lot about Breach. But, I mean, you don't know until it's happening, if everything is going to be okay or not.
Mel:
[52:42] Regional hospitals was honest about their capacity too from the beginning. You know, they were like, look, if they're small, we're not even going to consider it. If they're preterm, we don't have the resources for that. You know, there was already an indication of what the boundaries would have been at the regional hospital. So, okay, cool. So, we're there now and you kind of got this feeling of like, oh, hang on, this is different. This could actually be a pretty good experience just off vibes
Natasha:
[53:08] From going in. Yes, essentially.
Mel:
[53:11] What happened when you met the obstetrician face to face?
Natasha:
[53:14] She was so lovely. It was probably unlike any other medical interaction I've ever had to be honest. She was.
Natasha:
[53:24] So supportive and she was confident in my abilities as well being the one having to push these babies out she didn't make me feel nervous she didn't make me feel, like I was putting my babies in danger she, was open about what she would have preferred and what, is normal for them but she was also willing to listen to what I wanted so one of the things for example was I didn't want a cannula in as I'm not very good with needles.
Natasha:
[54:01] And I said that I was willing to labor for so like for example she would have rather done it straight away so they could take bloods and have it there ready to go just in case something would happen and then I said well, no I don't want to do that right from the start. I just didn't particularly want it at all. But we compromised and said after however long it was, then we'll look at doing it. And it was the same for the oxytocin. So after we had talked about everything and figured out a plan of attack, I gave them my birth plan. We had prepared a birth plan for both a natural birth and a caesarean prior with Hannah and Lou and Crystal as well. So we were already kind of aware of what normal procedure is for hospitals with twin births. Not that that relates to breach, but we already had a plan of attack on what we wanted, what we didn't want. I didn't particularly want anything.
Natasha:
[55:03] So even, for example, the oxytocin, we decided that we're going to break the waters and see what would happen. And then after, I think it was two hours, if I hadn't started contracting by that point, we were then going to administer oxytocin from there. Thankfully, I didn't need it. But it was just, it was so refreshing to be able to have a conversation with someone without them saying no. And then we're just able to compromise being like, okay, well, we'll try it this way. If this doesn't work, then we'll do what they recommend. And that helps the nerves as well.
Mel:
[55:42] It's incredible that you got all the way to your pregnancy. And the thing that stuck out was, wow, somebody listened and also nobody said no to me. Throughout our own care that we would even have someone say to you, no, absolutely not. is sort of a little bit off-putting. So that's amazing that you were met with this unicorn care provider.
Natasha:
[56:07] Yeah.
Mel:
[56:07] You know, unfortunately, like what you're describing, maybe what was surprising to you is this is not what you'd previously experienced from the other clinicians.
Natasha:
[56:19] Yeah, even over the smallest of things of at one point they wanted to do back in the regional hospital, at one point they wanted to do twice weekly Dopplers and I said no and they weren't happy with that, and even though they didn't need it the just kind of got to a certain point in pregnancy where they just wanted to ramp up the monitoring we tried countering with, well can we do intermittent Dopplers as opposed to like CTG monitoring and even that wasn't, that wasn't accepted either so even though we had previously tried to kind of counter and have an alternative that we felt comfortable with that was met with kind of like a stonewall that. They weren't happy with so yeah going to Melbourne and yeah having her being open and was like this is so strange.
Mel:
[57:15] And this is oh it's so unfortunate isn't it that like oh wow it's shocking I'm actually getting respectful maternity care where somebody's listening to me where my requests are being not denied this does show how much effort was required just to open up the option of vaginal birth for you and it sounds like you guys are well resourced with support obviously to be able to leave your other children behind at a farm to have somebody I imagine back there also like taking care of everything over there and you know Hannah and Lou are both private privately hired practitioners so like this was a massive undertaking a lot of resources had to go into you just accessing the type of care that you wanted, which is really unfortunate, but also an amazing case study for how capable you can be when you have a goal and
Natasha:
[58:16] That you can actually.
Mel:
[58:18] Carve out new options for yourself that maybe didn't seem available to you. So it's quite a heartening story, but also I think it really highlights to women if you want something sometimes you have to really go get it it's not necessarily going to be immediately available to you and unfortunately for most women not all the options are on the table and you had to go right where do I get that thing and how far do I have to travel and what's it going to take so we've met this obstetrician and they broke your waters what happened next yeah
Natasha:
[58:54] So after they broke the waters, I've never had my waters broken before. So that was definitely a new experience. It was not something that I was prepared for in the sense of like we knew that that was going to happen because we had made our way down and we weren't going to wait for spontaneous. So that was another compromise. But we were okay with that. We thought that that was a case scenario that we were in a safe place to be able to deliver our babies the way that we wanted. So we were really happy with that option that they were willing to hold off on the oxytocin just to see how things progressed.
Natasha:
[59:30] So after they broke the waters they all had left so it was just my husband myself hannah and lou so, hannah was straight onto it she's like we've got to create our little love bubble and kind of get our natural oxytocin flowing so, they we went into i had a shower straight away to kind of clean up a little bit after my waters were broken and i jumped in the bath i had a bath there so they were willing the hospital was willing to, let me labor in the pool they didn't want me delivering in the pool but I was okay with that, so I hopped in the pool straight away I have got no idea what time it was I've got no idea when it happened but not long after I was in the pool I started getting some contractions and, I was just in there with my husband we spent some time praying before we had people coming in and out we just had a little bit of alone time that we just kind of regrouped a little bit him and I, then not long after that it ramped up very very quickly, true to my other pregnancies and other labors it hit and it hit hard.
Natasha:
[1:00:43] Lou and Hannah were out in the birthing suite at that point because it was like a little bathroom that was in the birthing suite but my husband and I were in there and um, Hannah had said that when she was telling Lou she was like it's happening it's happening and then I think she said that, I had because I had no idea what time was I had no idea of anything that was going on I think she'd said that it was only about 45 minutes worth of labor so it was quick.
Natasha:
[1:01:09] Even I'd had quick labors before I'm not sure if this was because my waters were broken, but it was very intense and I wasn't necessarily prepared for how much more intense this was going to be. I had done a lot of, like, work prior. In my pregnancy but i must admit i also did struggle mentally because we had kind of been preparing for a cesarean for weeks prior that, that's what it was just going to be i had very little time to kind of switch from like that monday when we had the phone or the tuesday when we had the phone call with the hospital, to when we're at the hospital that oh i'm actually going to be delivering my babies and I'm not going to be having an operation so mentally it was a bit of a, mind game when the contractions hit it was kind of straight into it and I think you you had a very quick labor your second birth didn't you with.
Mel:
[1:02:12] My second it was a few hours yeah like 8 p.m I texted my sister and said I'm pretty sure this is labor now and then she was born at 10 30 and, yeah, the interactions feel like they're just on top of each other and you really feel like I couldn't, there's no way I could do this for a long time. Which does seem to be quite a typical fast labour situation is that you're almost still labouring but all of the intensity is jam-packed into a shorter period of time.
Mel:
[1:02:48] It's like you just have a lot of contractions but they're just like bunched together.
Natasha:
[1:02:54] Yeah. So I really struggled this time mentally. It was like the peak of the contractions, I'd be up here and they were brutal, but I'd never felt like I got the rest I felt like I couldn't catch my breath on the way back down it was just like I'd only like have a very very like go down a little bit I really struggled with that this time around and, I was begging for the epidural I felt so bad that I was caving on what I wanted and they're like baby's coming so it.
Natasha:
[1:03:29] Was yeah I was just so lost in my own world that I didn't even click of like, how far down my son was and I think too because it was breech it felt quite different to what a headfirst baby feels like because you've got the pressure of the head whereas with the breech that comes after, and it's a very different sensation so I had Hannah on my left hand side and she's like you can't have the epidural, they're coming he's coming he's here and yeah he was born he came out fine his APCA was like nine after one minute so he was, happy as anything and then we had I actually had birthed in the bathroom on the floor, we didn't quite make it back out so he was born um and then they were wanting me to get up and go to the bed because typical, procedure is to have an ultrasound to figure out where twin B is. I somehow was able to walk back and make it onto the bed and they didn't even get the ultrasound machine in and I had started pushing and my little baby girl was born seven minutes after.
Mel:
[1:04:49] Well and it sounds like you kind of just went into labor and straight into transition.
Natasha:
[1:04:56] Yeah.
Mel:
[1:04:57] Because for anybody who's not actually labored before, each contraction does feel like it's rising, rising, rising in intensity. And then it peaks to this sensation where you think, right, that's the top, that's as painful as it's going to get. And then the sensation eases off again and reduces. And then there's this little valley where you typically get to have a little rest. You recenter your mind, you take a breath and you go, okay, there's no pain down in the valley. And then... In a typical longer labour, that rest might last a few minutes, whereas in faster labours, it looks more like this consistent up and down. You still go into a valley, but you don't get to stay there. You kind of get this momentary sense of, oh, that one's gone. Wait, there's another one coming, and you're back up the next hill. And, you know, in labour, the rest is as important as the activity. And so it can feel quite overwhelming not having that relief and that's a really common experience through transition and because it went so fast for you, I imagine it felt like constant transitional labour, especially in 45 minutes.
Natasha:
[1:06:11] Yeah, it was very quick. It was quicker than what I was expecting. I thought potentially with my waters being broken because it's not my body doing it itself, It was, I thought, I had prepared that I was going to be in labour for quite a few hours. I was expecting that to be my longest labour. And I don't know, I just, and I think I was fighting. I honestly think that I was fighting, pushing, because it just, it didn't seem like I'd progressed enough. It didn't feel like I had been labouring long enough. I think if I had have given into my body earlier, I think the babies would have come earlier. But it was just it was so quick it felt like we barely had time to kind of gather ourselves really because I had typically with my home births I had started out using a TENS machine, to manage pain and then I would go into a birthing pool to, deliver my babies but this was different and I knew that I wanted to get out of the pool to be able to use the TENS machine so that I could manage the pain and I didn't want to leave it for too long so that it was kind of... Working soon enough to manage the pain but it was incredibly fast I don't think that it.
Natasha:
[1:07:39] To be honest from what I have heard from Hannah and Lou I don't even think that the midwives at the hospital were even aware of how quickly I had progressed because we were left alone which was what we wanted we didn't want, that essentially have a peanut gallery I didn't want people just standing there watching me I just wanted to be left alone let things kind of progress I'm quite a private person, and the thought of having just people standing around watching me was so daunting so, I think one of the midwives had walked past the birthing suite and when they were hearing me with all the moaning they were a little bit shocked but we were so grateful because instead of having we were anticipating to have, potentially 20 people in the room because there's twins, there's a lot more involved than what a normal single baby is so we were expecting to have obstetricians we're expecting to have the pediatric team we're expecting to have the resuscitation team we were, there were so many people that we were anticipating to have and.
Natasha:
[1:08:47] I think because it happened so quickly that it just, no one was there. And then we only had, I think, I believe there was three midwives and the obstetrician there. And then, of course, Hannah and Luke. So it was a very small team, very, very small team. And the babies came out so well. My son, his APGA score was nine. He came out, he was happy as Larry. My daughter, being the second twin, it was a much quicker transition for her, being seven minutes apart she had a very very quick birth and her APGAR score was seven but it was back up to nine after five minutes so they were both very happy very healthy babies coming out and, really couldn't have asked for a better situation we said almost straight away that, that was the most home birth like situation that we could have had without it actually being at home, which was amazing obviously.
Mel:
[1:09:47] And then to top it off uh Hannah mentioned that you had a physiological placental birth which again for anybody listening that is quite unusual even for a singleton baby in hospital in at home home birth midwives all the time that's just kind of standard procedure is a physiological placental birth where you just wait and let it come but it's fairly unheard of in the hospital, the routine care is usually to give an injection and then they bring the placenta out traction on the cord by the care provider. But to do it with twins, again, I can imagine that that was quite a unique experience for everybody at the hospital. But Hannah mentioned the obstetrician seemed relaxed enough with that scenario to pretty much leave the midwives to that job and left the room, which is ideal because mental birth relies on good oxytocin levels and privacy, which I just have a sense that this obstetrician was aware of.
Natasha:
[1:10:48] With my second and my third children. being home births. It was physiological placental birth, but they took quite a while. They were about an hour each after birth for the placentas to come out. And we weren't really sure what was going to happen with these placentas because in the ultrasounds, they're fraternal twins. So being boy and girl, they're fraternal. And so, they had their own placentas, but in the ultrasounds it had actually shown that the placentas had supposedly fused together so we weren't a hundred percent sure what was going to happen with these placentas, we weren't sure if one was going to come out after baby boy was born and then baby girl would come and then her placenta would come, we had no idea, and we didn't really have any answers for that it was just.
Natasha:
[1:11:39] Wait and see kind of thing so we were waiting they did end up coming they were fused so they did come out together, and then even along with that we were expecting we had requested delayed cord clamping specifically for the umbilical cord to be white and there to be no pulsating anymore, and we were expecting maybe five minutes maybe 10 minutes we were expecting a pretty minimal time in all honesty we were just grateful for whatever we could have gotten rather than the one minute or whatever the standard practice is, And instead, they were able to have their cords up until about an hour after. But even the placenta, it was probably an hour after my daughter was born that I still hadn't passed the placenta.
Mel:
[1:12:31] I'm just so struck by how capable you were to pivot in every single one of those scenarios because that's a lot of information to take in. It's a lot of people to interact with. It's a lot of advocacy. And it's clear that your team, you know,
Mel:
[1:12:53] Hannah and Lou, you know, who were there with you for the bulk of it were really pivotal. But I wonder if, as we wrap up, if there's any advice that you have for women who are feeling a little bit trapped and stuck with the options that they have available to them. How do they do what you've just done and really fought for and
Natasha:
[1:13:19] Yeah I think probably the biggest thing is is like don't rush into anything that's probably my biggest, biggest like advice that I can give is just nothing, I mean there probably are certain instances where you do need to make rush decisions but for the most part if you can just take time let the emotion kind of subside because emotion, unfortunately, does dictate a lot of what we do and don't do. I think if you're able to just kind of take a pause, allow the emotion to pass, and then whether you get a second opinion. I mean, the maternal and fetal medicine doctor was another crucial aspect of our journey, that without him we wouldn't have been able to get into the hospital. We wouldn't have been able to do that. So by getting a second opinion from him, That kind of changed the whole trajectory of what was possible. We knew what we wanted, but we had to kind of find those connections to be able to make it possible, just, yeah, not rushing into anything.
Natasha:
[1:14:30] If you have the time and if you have the patience as well, I guess, is just, yeah, take a breath, feel the emotions that you need to because it can be really, really hard. That can be isolating if you're able to have the support of a midwife private midwife that is major they have some unbelievable connections they can, find for you but once again I wouldn't have gotten in contact with the maternal and fetal medicine doctor if it wasn't for Hannah it's not something I would have done on my own accord I didn't even know what they were, we just thought it was obstetricians and that was it I think having if you are able to it is an investment, but it's an investment that will stay with your child their whole life, really.
Mel:
[1:15:15] Well, and with you, investing in your wellbeing is not wasted money. Because if you don't invest in your well-being, you have to invest in recovering from whatever happens to you as a result of not investing at the other end. So you mentioned just taking decisions slower. Slow it. Feel the emotion. Don't make decisions in the emotion or as a result of the emotion.
Mel:
[1:15:45] Getting second opinion opens up opportunities and makes new connections. Having a really robust support team like with a doula or a private midwife some kind of continuity where people are going to come with you on that journey and that was something that I really noticed in Hannah and Lou's story too is that they were just willing to turn over every stone and go to the length that you were willing to go to and were just with you on the journey and And they're like, yep, if that's what you want to do, we're going. If you want to have a cesarean, we'll work that out. If you're having a vaginal birth, we'll work that out. So just having a team that will help you work it out. And it sounds like your husband was just an enabler the entire time. And that, yeah, you had people and support and resources to just make it happen. But also that you had the emotional capacity
Mel:
[1:16:44] And the nervous system capacity and just the ability to keep going because it would be absolutely forgivable for you to say, oh, my gosh, this is all just too much. And I think I'm just going to have the cesarean and settle for what I've got available. I don't have the energy to pursue anything else so the fact that you had the energy to kind of lead the chart and then take all of those people with you and have your self-resourced I think it was like the perfect scenario where you took advantage of everything that was available to you and overcame the obstacles that really limited your choices and that's really what shines for me in your story and even more significant that the decisions had to be made in such a short period of time. Is quite exceptional thank you.
Mel:
[1:17:38] Is there anything else you wanted to share before we say farewell to our listeners
Natasha:
[1:17:43] I just want to thank my team so much for being with me i've honestly without them, this would have been a completely different situation and it's not something that my husband and i take for granted we are so incredibly grateful for everything that they've done from us even just being a phone call or a text message away just, for some support like it's, I think when you go through something like this it really makes you realize like how crucial these people are, in the community to help support other women as well and if you are able to I think that they are one of the best investments that you can make in your pregnancy journey it's, incredible what a little bit of extra support can do and, make the world of a difference yeah absolutely.
Mel:
[1:18:34] Amazing thank you so much for being with us natasha for those listening i'm going to put some additional episodes and resources in the show notes so that you can click through to some of the things that natasha used to prepare including dr stew's resources uh last week's episode with hannah and lou is also a must listen because that adds an extra element to this story To get access to the resources for each podcast episode, join the mailing list at MelanieTheMidwife.com. And to support the work of this podcast, wear The Rebellion in the form of clothing and other merch at TheGreatBirthRebellion.com. Follow me, Mel, @MelanieTheMidwife on socials and the show @TheGreatBirthRebellion. All the details are in the show notes.
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