Episode 184 - Orgasmic Birth
Mel:
[0:00] Welcome to the Great Birth Rebellion podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Melanie Jackson. I'm a clinical and research midwife with my PhD, and each episode, I cast a critical eye over current maternity care practice by grappling with research and historical knowledge to help you get the best out of your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey. All right, welcome everybody to today's episode of the Great Birth Rebellion podcast. I'm your host Dr. Melanie Jackson and today we are talking about the possibility of joy, bliss and orgasm during birth. My guest today is Debra Pascali Bonaro.
Mel:
[0:44] She is, I want to call you the pioneer of the orgasmic birth movement, but also I don't want to lose you just yet. If you're sitting here thinking, holy moly, Mel's lost the plot. She's talking about orgasm and birth in the same sentence. Just hang tight. We're going to explain ourselves. But we want to reintroduce the idea of joy and bliss as a possibility during birth and open you up to the idea that maybe birth could be a peak human experience, which is not something that is encouraged by. By society for us to believe. In order to keep this podcast free to you, the listener, I'd like to thank my sponsor for today's episode, Poppy Child from Pop That Mama. She is about to do something epic.
Mel:
[1:34] Poppy is hosting a pain management in labor masterclass live in New York City, and she's live streaming it to the world. This session will be all about how to cope with the intensity of labor and how
Mel:
[1:46] to work with the sensations instead of fighting them. You'll learn real tools that you can use in birth and it's a must watch with your birth partner so you're both prepared for what labor actually feels like and how to write it even better it's totally free and it's happening on the 19th of January so you can click the link in the show notes of this podcast to sign up for the live stream a replay is also available if you can't be there at the time but you have to be on the list to get it so spots for the live stream are limited save your place now so go through to the link in the show notes to save your spot so i've invited deborah with us because she is the queen of understanding the idea of birth joy maybe birth gasms during this journey. And actually, you're a very good friend of Sarah Buckley, who we've had on the podcast before. Also, Betty Ann Davis, who has been feeding you information about the convergence of rebellious midwives, I understand. So welcome to the podcast, Debra.
Debra:
[2:56] Oh, thank you so much, Melanie. It is such a pleasure to be here because I love all that you're doing. And I only wish I was closer to be at your rebellious midwife's gatherings. So it's really an honor to be here today with you.
Mel:
[3:12] Well, for those of our listeners who maybe this is the first time they're meeting you, can you give us an idea of who you are as a woman and what your work has been?
Debra:
[3:23] I'd be honored to. I always love to start. I'm a mother of five. I'm a grandmother of six, which even saying it sometimes, I can't believe it, the joys of my life for sure. And I've been a doula for more than 40 years. I'm a doula trainer. I've taught doulas in over 40 different countries around the world and helped set up numerous community-based programs. And it's through all of that that I literally one night had a dream, seriously asleep, about making a film called Orgasmic Birth. And I woke my husband up in the middle of the night and he said, go back to sleep and have a better dream because he's like, you're not a filmmaker. And like many things in life, we don't have to know how to do it. We have to know the people that do. And so I had no idea when I was the director of Orgasmic Birth that it would become more than a film and really a movement and speaking and sharing about the joys and pleasures of birth now for many, many years. And I wear many other hats in birth, but I think that's enough to kick us off to talk about pleasure today.
Mel:
[4:37] So this idea of orgasmic birth came to you in a dream, which is amazing.
Mel:
[4:42] And then Born was the film. And then on from there, you've continued to do your work. So you've been in this birthing world for 40 years or more. Can you explain to us, What do you mean by orgasmic birth? Is it that we're all expected to be, you know, sensually orgasming as we give birth to our babies?
Debra:
[5:04] And I'm so glad you asked that question because I think there's so much misconception out there. And I'd love to know of all the people listening, how many of them were thinking that. And now we get an opportunity to clarify. So first of all, I always say everybody should define orgasmic birth for themselves. You don't want anyone to define what your birth should be. That should be in your hands. And so I'd love to challenge everyone listening, like, what does that mean to you? But when I think about for myself early on and for the many people that I've worked with, orgasmic birth is holding the full range. It's broad enough to include those people that do have an orgasm, what we call a birthgasm. And some people are intending that, but you'd be surprised how many people had no idea. And then birth gave them this most expansive waves of pleasure. One woman said it was like being one with the universe. And so like she said, she's never since then felt that expanded in her pleasure. And yet most people that have birthgasms often tell me about it looking down, looking shamed, looking embarrassed, and never told anybody. Their best friend, their mother. They certainly didn't tap the midwife or doctor on the shoulder and say, guess what? Yeah.
Debra:
[6:32] We must include them, but I want to say they're, we don't know because not everybody talks about it, but I think they're a small percentage. For most people, an orgasmic birth is feeling moments of joy, love, pleasure, connection, of birthing in their power, in their way, feeling respected, honored, and supported, again, in the way that they want. So when we broaden it, really orgasmic birth is taking kind of a place where instead of talking about pain and fear, we're giving everybody an opportunity to rewrite their own script of what would birth look like for you and that you could bring an element, love, joy, connection, pleasure, power, whatever words you say, into wherever you birth and however you birth.
Mel:
[7:25] This really opens the opportunity up for women to confess to other women that they actually felt good and great and bliss during birth because we are sold the message that birth is painful scary undignified and that it's something that we endure that's the current cultural language but imagine if women who did actually enjoy their births really came out loud and proud and said, actually, I didn't experience any of those things. Maybe they experienced pain, but I didn't experience any of those scary things that I was led to believe would happen. Instead, I actually experienced, it was the most incredible experience of my life. And I know we were speaking earlier.
Mel:
[8:12] About my own example of what I wouldn't call an orgasmic birth but it is orgasmic in the way that you described it in a sense that I don't believe I've ever experienced the amount of bliss and joy that happened to me during this my second birth and whoever if you've been listening to the podcast for a while you will have already heard my birth story but I'll give you a very short snippet because it's exactly what deborah's talking about it's i certainly don't think i had an orgasm maybe i did i don't know but in that moment as my baby was emerging i had the overwhelming urge to laugh and laugh and laugh and verbally said i am feeling so happy right now this this exact moment when my baby is coming out feels incredible i recognize it as happiness joy elation i was over the moon And I literally, the words that came out of my mouth was, I can't wait to do that again. I felt high on the hormones of birth. And we certainly know that we're wired to do that. And we'll talk about that as well. So, yeah.
Mel:
[9:19] What you're offering is a completely new language to understand the experience of birth.
Debra:
[9:25] Exactly. And that honors the fullness of it. That really honors that there's a huge range. But we've been sold this thing that isn't correct about birth being only about pain and fear. And so much of that is people are being put down often physically and emotionally. We're not creating the opportunities for people. I always say to lean into pleasure, to really experience what their body can offer them. We've been restricted. We often, too, are not educated, even aside from childbirth fully, about our bodies as women and our capabilities to explore and enjoy pleasure and joy in our bodies.
Mel:
[10:12] I just think birth can be a peak human experience, but that's not the language that women are given. So we are giving you permission through this episode. Please, if you think to yourself, my birth was not all the scary ways that were described to me. I think I actually liked it. That is okay. It's completely allowed. In fact, it's such an ideal scenario.
Mel:
[10:35] Are you getting ready to have a baby? And if you are, what are you going to do about the pain of contractions? There are lots of things you can do. In fact, I'm going to tell you about them because I've been watching women give birth without pain relief for over 18 years.
Mel:
[10:51] I'm Dr. Melanie Jackson and I'm a home birth midwife. I had my own babies at home without pain relief and I've been helping other women do the same for my entire career. If you want the top tips and tricks that I recommend to help women give birth without pain medication, it's all here in the link below in my guide to giving birth without pain relief. You can do it. Give it a go. Why not just prepare? And let's talk about then the hormones and our anatomy that govern this process of joy, bliss and elation during birth. Because you know me, I've got my pregnancy crocheted suit. Which I love which you love and it's got full full anatomy but you've got a crochet creation that has even more full anatomy yeah you show us this on video Debra's currently holding up a full anatomy crocheted crafted yarn what we're going to call pussy puppet
Debra:
[11:51] Yes, I love her. And it's so good because you can talk to the pussy, right? And I think we have to listen to our yonis, our pussies all the time. So it's a great opportunity to really love her up. But what's so unique, and I so enjoy sharing her as when we're in person in that, is to understand that if we turn her around, that we have clitoral anatomy here, and we can actually take the clitoris out where we can see the legs and the bulbs. And just wasn't long ago, one of our, we have an advanced orgasmic birth practitioner community.
Debra:
[12:33] One of our practitioners did a survey of women in her community and asked them if they understood the full anatomy of the clitoris. And the vast majority just talked about the tip, right? The little magic button that we all come to know and love. But so many people don't understand that there's 8,000 plus nerves that go into legs and bulbs. And you really get to experience it. I wish you were all here. Because when you put the clitoris back in, you can really see that you have to, you know, put it around and how those legs and bulbs are really going into the vagina. They're coming around the urethra, the vaginal opening, that these nerves, 8,000 plus, have one purpose, and that's pleasure. Like there's not another purpose to the clitoris. So how is it that women, we were created with this incredible clitoral complex, and then all these nerves are there in childbirth, the baby's coming down and has to be in contact with them all, and we're not, one, educated about it, and two, we don't understand that they actually are there for pleasure. How can we access that?
Mel:
[13:55] And so what if, and oh gosh, I wish people were watching this on video. If you're not, please go to YouTube. But what we're looking at is you can see from the external anatomy on your crocheted, beautiful yarny pussy is that at the top, you can see the clitoris on the outside anatomy. But from behind, Deborah's popped the clitoris back into the pussy puppet. And what we can see is that the body of the clitoris that exists inside your body, You can't see it, but it's as big as the external vulva and is what is behind all of your external vulval anatomy. And it travels all the way, almost down to your anus and all around behind your labia. That's the extent of your clitoris. And as I understand it, has more pleasure endings than the penis.
Debra:
[14:50] Way more. Penises only have about 3,000 and a penis is a multipurpose organ, right? It has to do many things where the clitoris is a single purpose of pleasure.
Mel:
[15:02] And of course, it's got to be involved in birth. But let's talk about the very facts. So firstly, we've got this pleasure anatomy that it completely envelops our baby as it emerges. So of course, we're going to get some sensation from that. But the hormone of orgasm and joy and bliss and bonding, one of them is oxytocin.
Debra:
[15:26] Oxytocin.
Mel:
[15:27] So let's talk about that because guess which hormone is, you know, governs labor?
Debra:
[15:34] It's oxytocin. And that's why, I mean, the famous quote years ago from Ina May Gaskin is the energy that gets the baby in gets the baby out, right? Or the same place to make a baby is the right place to give birth to a baby because the same conditions exist. Your body doesn't know the difference and say, okay, in order to have great sex or by alone or with a partner, right, and experience orgasm, I need certain criteria. But on the day that I give birth, I'm going to throw that out. And I'm OK with three strangers coming in. I'm OK with a stranger with their hand in my vagina. I'm OK with all these things. No, your body needs the same condition. So oxytocin is a shy hormone, right?
Debra:
[16:22] It needs to feel private, safe, and that you feel unobserved as defined by you. My great learning, as you said, from my dear friend and mentor, Dr. Sarah Buckley. But if we understand oxytocin and understand what we can do to help our bodies to produce it.
Debra:
[16:43] To feel safe and private, then we can understand that correlation of how birth and intimacy are really one in the same. And we need to really talk about that. I think we do a lot of harm, especially for people that might be survivors of past trauma and sexual abuse.
Debra:
[17:07] Feelings can come, situations can happen in birth that actually re-traumatize people. But by being educated on these connections, We can help provide healing. I mean, in our documentary, Orgasmic Birth, there's a great birth story.
Debra:
[17:25] Of a survivor who really reclaimed her body and found great healing in birth. And I know you talk about this too. Birth is this day that can truly transform us. And for those that are saying, well, you know, if you're blessed not to have past trauma in your life, then to understand this allows you to open up fully to birth in a way that we need to talk about. It's really missing right now. I think we've sterilized birth when we moved birth from home to hospital and so many elements that would help us to achieve pleasure and joy and bliss and love and connection, sadly, were stripped away and it's time to return them.
Mel:
[18:09] I have to agree with you. I think in hospitals, our vulvas are seen as this passive passageway through which the baby just exits. The whole idea that birth is a social experience that needs to happen in private with safe people has been lost. The very function of the clitoris during labor and birth, I don't think it's even been explored or researched. And so we you know this amazing anatomy with these amazing hormones and we've conveniently tucked away that information and let the language of fear pain and medicine dominate this unique female experience where we are actually we have the ability to to discover what our bodies are capable of, but feel these incredible things. It's scandalous.
Debra:
[19:04] It's scandalous for sure. And we do have data that shows that when women have an orgasm, it greatly reduces pain. And there have been studies about birthgasms. So the people that do want to, I always say, take things literally into your own hands. You have the ability to use pleasure as a pain reduction tool.
Mel:
[19:27] In fact, I've had clients who, and I've spoken about this on previous episodes, talk about the use of orgasm as a way of dealing with morning sickness and nausea during pregnancy. Makes so much sense. If we're releasing these incredible hormones that are designed to make us feel better. I mean, they work in a lot of different contexts.
Debra:
[19:48] A lot of contexts. I love these hormones, though. And I do want to just back to the hormones. There's oxytocin, but beta endorphin is important, too, because it's nature's kind of pleasure hormone. It's a pain reliever. And it also is part of orgasm. So we have both in birth and in pleasure, oxytocin, beta endorphin, and other hormones that are rising. And they rise in a very similar sequence in both situations, and they're blocked by very similar things in both situations.
Mel:
[20:22] Let's talk about the blocking possibilities because we, I mean, we just touched on the very, the fact that oxytocin is, it connects pleasure, orgasms, but it also connects labor and birth and how we experience that. We know that when we're intimate with our partners, that we usually don't do that with strangers in a public setting in very, very bright lights. I mean, everybody's got their own little fetishes, I imagine, but I'd say the majority like to do these things in private where they feel safe, like they're not going to be interrupted. I'm certainly much more comfortable when the door is locked, knowing that there's no tiny people who are going to accidentally, you know, encroach on that space. So we know now that we can very closely connect intimacy and sexuality and sensuality with birth in so many ways. The anatomy is the same. The hormonal process is very, very similar in connection. We know also that these, that environment is most likely to be able to be replicated in the home.
Mel:
[21:29] However, the majority of women go to hospital to have their babies. So what is it about the maternity care system that gets in the way of women having this peak experience of joy, bliss and potentially orgasm at their births?
Debra:
[21:46] Great question. And part of me wants to say the entire hospital experience because most of us would really, I mean, try to envision, you know, picking a night that you're going to go to a hospital and have great sex and a great intimate time alone or with a partner. I mean, I don't think most people can envision it. But I do think that the lack of privacy is a big one. Like, I wish you said that door was locked. I always say to people, you know, bring a doorstop and like, poop, you can't come in unless you knock. Like when that just little things could be novel ideas, making the room. And we know this, right? The Cochran database has data that if you give birth in a room that looks the same as a sick room, you have worse outcomes. So you want a room that looks like your favorite holiday resort you know why can't we make the rooms more beautiful more joyful more like if we were going on a holiday we might be able to have great sex in a room that look like that so there's a lot and I always say and you said it too sensuality sensuality is so important and when we're pregnant people understand that all those senses are heightened, right? Sometimes your smell, what you liked before, you don't like now. So in labor, you want to think about what do you want to see? What do you want to hear? What do you want to smell? What do you want to taste?
Debra:
[23:13] And skin, what do you want to feel, our biggest organ? And when we can bring the sensuality in line with what we need to have great sex. As a doula, I ask my clients that all the time. You know, like, you're making love here tonight. What do you need that environment to be like, and let's do our best to create that wherever you're planning to give birth. So lots of little things we can do where we have to deal with the current system. But my dream is one day we can make this so we can have home birth in the hospital and have hospitals really understand that birth would be a lot safer and easier if we honored what the hormones need, if we honored that birth is on this continuum of our sexual life, and we have to honor it in every way.
Mel:
[24:08] Absolutely. And I think if we organized maternity care systems to, when they're designing it, ask, how does this support or hinder oxytocin, then the birth environment would be very, very different. We recently, one of our local hospitals remodeled and it's beautiful. The rooms are gorgeous. But every time you walk past a particular part of the room, all the lights are automated. So if the woman goes into the bathroom she's immediately because it senses activity in there turns all the lights on so she can't labor in the toilet without the light the very bright lights flicking on and in all of the cupboards if you open the cupboards for anything the lights flash on it's it's um overstimulating for me as a clinician if I ever go in there I think oh there's another light on what this is it's an assault on the senses and so even those little things I thought they didn't think of women when they designed this room there are some great features there's a big birth pool in the middle and there's they could the women can hang from the ceiling but I almost like wow you really missed the mark on the automated lighting so I think yeah if we could even create an environment that understood the needs of oxytocin then birth in hospitals could be very different. And also, if we allowed women to choose their care providers and who were not strangers to them when they arrived in birth, that would make a huge difference.
Debra:
[25:35] A huge difference because if you're wanting a birth that's going to be more oxytocin driven and more intimate and maybe more moments of privacy and connection with your partner, you want to know your midwife ahead so you can have these discussions and say, you know, I need some moments of privacy and talk. I always say, you know, talk about your midwife if you're going to be doing certain things to stimulate oxytocin, whatever they are. And you need to feel good and supported by that. How do you feel with a random stranger that labor is not the time to talk about anything? And certainly trying to sort through that is really hard. I have to just share one fun story because years ago I was at a prenatal with a midwife a good friend of mine and we were attending a home birth and just to understand how people need to talk about it we ask some open-ended questions as we always do so people can share how they're feeling this is like 37 weeks we're getting really ready for the baby at any time so we think we've covered everything, but is there anything else you want to share? And she says, yes, I'm going to be making some very different sounds.
Debra:
[26:56] And we said, fantastic. You know, we love kind of those burst sounds and they're primal and they come at any point. And she said, yes, but you've never heard mine. And so we thought, okay, like if this is a concern, we want to address it, right? This is the benefit of being able to know the people who'll be at your birth so we go deeper you know and i said you know do you want to give a try at what you think your sounds will be so that you can feel comfortable we've attended hundreds of births and we're very comfortable with all your sounds and she smiled and she said yes thank you for asking.
Debra:
[27:42] And both midwife and I went, and I have to say at that point, neither one of us had heard that sound at birth. And so we just smiled and she said, come on over here. And she opened a draw and all her friends wanted to support her in an orgasmic birth. She had more vibrators than I think my local sex shop had, and they gave her a vibrator party. But what would have happened if she couldn't have shared that, she was able to talk with us. We were able to talk with her about we felt comfortable with that. We could validate that if that was something she felt comfortable with and that we would give her whatever privacy she wanted to be able to access that if that was a part of her birth. So that's just a fun example of how knowing your provider ahead to really share whatever it is that you might be thinking and you really need to share. And it can go in many, many different directions.
Mel:
[28:40] And I think women know more about the power of oxytocin and good sensations during labor than care providers do. Because I remember being a student in a hospital setting and midwives whispering at the desk about things that women were doing in their births, like, oh my gosh, she's touching a clitoris. I'm not staying for that. That's no way. It was It's almost like the talking point of the tea room. And, you know, but we know even things like nipple stimulation, it can move labor along, can help with things, you know, if things stall or sometimes a part of sort of natural induction methods. Yeah. The sensuality of our bodies really translates into labor and birth, but it's really not recognized by our care providers. So I think you're right. Having a care provider and for women to be unashamedly talking about what they're intending on doing during their births is revolutionary and quite rebellious.
Debra:
[29:37] Quite rebellious and essential. Essential, whatever it is on your mind, right? These discussions have to happen. And birth is such an intimate, intimate day or three days or whatever it takes. However long it takes. I would just say this because I think I get asked a lot about birthgasm. Like how often does it really happen? And I wanted to say we really don't know. We call our documentary Orgasmic Birth, The Best Kept Secret. And what I found is people don't talk about it. Like I wish if you had birthgasm, speak up as Melanie, you said, all pleasurable births, but we don't really know, but we think that number is a lot higher than what everyone even can imagine. And again, not that people are necessarily always trying for it. It's just that the clitoris is right there. And when you think about that, you can understand too, that when people are put into bed.
Debra:
[30:38] Without a choice. Now, if you choose to lay down, that's your choice. That's your power. That's what your body said. Then do it. But I think when people are in hospital many times and are put back, put down, then we're not giving the opportunity for the physiology to work. Even oxytocin is a feedback loop and the pressure of gravity down into that pelvic floor and area keeps the oxytocin building a lot. But when it comes to birth, when you listen and you watch people that are allowed to freely choose their birth positions, they often get in forward leaning. They're squatting forward, they're kneeling forward. And when you think about that clitoris, right, that's in the whole front part of the pelvis. And when you lean forward, you lean into pleasure so that these nerves are designed to help lubricate. They're designed to help the vagina to open and expand. And think about how that must help birth a little bit, making it juicier and easier and gravity.
Debra:
[31:52] And again, we know that that is taking away pain when we're leaning into pleasure. So I think we have to start saying, would more people experience more things if we had vertical, upright birth for everyone, if we supported people listening to their bodies and moving in their own way? And then it just makes me so sad that when people are put back.
Debra:
[32:18] We're minimizing that pleasure, but we're also, how many people would feel safe, right, to allow your body to get juicy and open when you're spread eagle with strangers and other people telling you what to do? When we really start thinking about our anatomy, we know how our anatomy responds and opens. And we know when our anatomy says no.
Mel:
[32:45] Right?
Debra:
[32:46] That vagina says not now. And so I think we haven't really honored how many babies might be taking a different path to birth because we're not, again, like you said, what will support oxytocin, but what will support women to feel safe, to be able to lean into their pleasure, to be able to allow their bodies to fully open with no shame,
Debra:
[33:13] with the privacy and the care that they desire and deserve.
Mel:
[33:17] We've spoken about the things that can block that, but maybe we can give a little bit of a roadmap to women who are listening to this and thinking, oh, how could I access the possibility of joy, bliss, and orgasm at birth? If a woman's planning their birth, what do you think they need to really consider if they want to open themselves up to this possibility? What could they do for themselves to maybe increase the chance that they'll have a joyful experience of birth?
Debra:
[33:47] Listen to both our podcasts and listen to positive stories, right? And if there is trauma, either in your own personal, how you were born as a baby or in your ancestral line, really take time to address it, to heal it. Clear kind of that path so that you're fully open to embrace more pleasure. But then I always feel that if you're not living with pleasure, it's very hard to call it in in the time of birth. So I say to everybody, start a pleasure practice. Create a list of 10 to 20 things immediately, and I hope that list will grow to 30, 40, 50 things. But get a good list, even right at this moment, pause and write down things that bring you pleasure. And they should be one to three, five-minute things. They can be short. They can be words that you like to hear, words that you say to yourself. I love to dance wildly for three minutes in the middle of the day, have a piece of dark chocolate, enjoy a hot tea. So start thinking of all the simple pleasures. And of course, Throw in some long ones. So sex can be in there, but don't make that a three-minute one, right? Enjoy that.
Debra:
[34:59] Think about I love long baths. What are the things that might be longer you might not be able to do every day, but you'll weave into your week? And then make sure every day, and I challenge you, for the next seven days, do three to five pleasures a day. And in a week, check in and see how you feel. And if you've created a pleasure practice, then you can start saying, okay, all through my pregnancy, I prioritize pleasure. And it's not just the good days. When you're having your toughest days, when things are hard, take that pause for pleasure. It will reset your system. It will lower your stress. And then you can start seeing how in labor, it's not to say you won't have pain, you won't have challenge, it won't be intense. But think about if in between sensations, you can pause for a minute or two of pleasure. Start weaving that pleasure into your birth in small ways. And that's how people really transform their birth experience.
Mel:
[36:01] Knowing what we know now about the importance of positioning and of the environment and the people that are with us, then you can even further back in your early, early plans, see if you can manufacture a birth location and scenario and audience that are going to open up the possibility of joy rather than be barriers to that as well. Yeah. And I was, as you were talking, I was just thinking about the little glimmers of bliss that women experience during labor and birth. Obviously, if it's uninterrupted and they're enjoying themselves, they've got the hormonal possibility. But I even think of you know sometimes you put a cold washer on a woman's forehead and she goes oh my gosh that's so good little things when they first sink into the bath and they go oh that is so nice this is the best little you know an icy drink that lands in their tummy and they can feel it in there those little glimmers within the really difficult sometimes difficult birth scenarios you can find bits of joy sometimes you know if you've got your children there and they come in and hold your hand or they say a sweet thing or feeling the support of your partner
Mel:
[37:14] All of those things are joyful moments within birth. And thankfully, we're hormonally and physically wired to receive that. It's quite extraordinary. And it's just so sad.
Mel:
[37:27] The whole possibility of that has been hijacked by how maternity care is set up. So my dream is that we have a maternity care system that values and favors oxytocin.
Debra:
[37:37] I share that with you. I'm right there. So we're both working on it.
Mel:
[37:43] Absolutely. Now, you've got a stack of resources that are available for women. If you want to explore the idea of orgasmic, blissful, and joyful birth more, this has been Debra's life work. So where can women find you if they want to explore this further and they love this idea? Where should they look?
Debra:
[38:04] I'm very easy because I'm orgasmic birth everywhere. So our website, orgasmicbirth.com, if you haven't seen our film, it's still there in I think six or seven languages right now for rental or purchase, because it really does change people's view by seeing it. There as well, we have pleasurable birth essentials, our class for expectant parents to really dive deeper into pleasure. And we even have advanced classes for midwives, doctors, nurses, doulas, and how do we kind of embrace that in our own lives so that we can support and hold space for clients to experience the fullness of birth. And we're on social. We're always having fun over on YouTube, Instagram, and our own podcast, Orgasmic Birth, with a lot of stories of people and how they found pleasure in their birth. And a lot of other people like you, Melanie, coming and sharing your great rebellious work with our audience as well.
Mel:
[39:10] Beautiful. And I'll make sure in the show notes below, everyone can find clickable
Mel:
[39:15] links to all of Debra's resources. So it won't be hard to find. Thank you so much for joining us at the Great Birth Rebellion podcast. We have changed the language around birth. It is entirely possible for you to feel joy, bliss, and maybe even orgasm during birth. We're wired for this. Why doesn't anybody say this louder? I mean, you have been. You have been saying it forever. but let's welcome this to the table as a possibility for birth thank you so much so
Debra:
[39:44] Much wishing everyone pleasure in your day and definitely in your birth.
Mel:
[39:49] Fantastic that has been today's episode of the great birth rebellion podcast we've been here with deborah pascali and i'll see you in the next episode to get access to the resources for each podcast episode join the mailing list at melaniethemidwife.com and to support the work of this podcast wear the rebellion in the form of clothing and other merch at thegreatbirthrebellion.com follow me mel @melaniethemidwife on socials and the show @thegreatbirthrebellion all the details are in the show notes
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